into maximum online visual effects with a cardboard replica of the president. that is the best new diplomatic thing in the world today. with david petraeus limping off into the sunset on this friday night, it's time, you know, yeah, i think it's late enough, it's time for a little honest talk about sex. and what better way to warm up for than that than talking about taxes and stupid stuff mitt romney says. >> is speaker boehner ready to make a deal? >> the president convened a pow wow with leaders. >> the congressional leaders meeting at the white house today. >> begin negotiations about how to avoid that so-called fiscal cliff. >> fiscal cliff. >> this is the beginning of a fruitful process. >> the issue is taxes. >> only one bad word -- taxes.

>> raising taxes is a very bad idea. >> raising taxes is a terrible idea. >> to show our seriousness, we put revenue on the table. >> we're prepared to put revenue on the table. >> a deadline. >> being able to work something out. >> there was a spirit of cooperation. >> tomorrow is speaker boehner's birthday. we didn't know how many candles were needed. ♪ best friend ♪ >> interrupting that was the ghost of christmas past. >> you guys are the best. thank you so much. >> mitt, 47%, romney. he is the gift that keeps on giving. >> republicans did not take kindly to mr. romney's words. >> i don't agree with the comments. >> we lost the presidency. it's time to move on. >> general petraeus finishing up testimony. >> petraeus is under fire for his affair with paula broadwell.

>> she is a marathon runner. ironman triathlon. he's a man. ten days after his re-election victory, new polls show president obama's job approval is at 53%, his favorability at 58%. the president's party, the democratic party has a 51% favorability, the republican's favorability is at 43%. those numbers are on the minds of everyone who filed into the roosevelt room in the white house today for the president's meeting with house and senate leaders. >> i think we're all aware that we have some business to do, and we've got to make sure that taxes don't go up on middle class families, that our economy remains strong, that we're creating jobs. our challenge is to make sure

that we are able to cooperate together, work together, find some common ground, make some tough compromises, build some consensus to do the people's business, and what the folks are looking for, and i think all of us agree on this is action. >> no politician ever likes to use the phrase tax increase and republican talking points forbid it. so feel free to substitute the phrase tax increase when you hear the word revenue. >> to show our seriousness, we put revenue on the table, as long as it's accompanied by significant spending cuts. for my colleagues to show the american people that we're serious, that cutting spending and solving our fiscal dilemma. i believe that we can do this and avert the fiscal cliff that is right in front of us today.

>> we're prepared to put revenue on the table, provided we fix the real problem. >> reality is settling in, in of all places, las vegas, where the republican governor's association is meeting. politico reports the people have spoken. i think we're going to have to be flexible now, said virginia governor bob mcdonnell when asked if his party would have to be open to taxes on the highest earners. elections have consequences. the general custer of the republican party, the last man standing is, of course, general limbaugh. >> the republicans are establishing the mechanism to cave on tax increases. some governors are -- mcconnell, we've got the sound bite, ready now to talk about revenues as long as there's talk of spending cuts. so obama wants $1.6 trillion in new taxes.

here's something to think about. how is he going to get that? and he will. see, this is the thing that we've got to realize. this is going to happen. it may be $1.2, but he is going to get this. boehner says let obama lead and see where it takes us. mcdonnell says we're fine and dandy on the revenue side now. republicans are, we lost the election, we have to moderate our tone and beliefs and all this. so we're on the verge here of watching it cave. i'm seeing the signs of republicans giving in on opposing new taxes. at the highest levels, i can see this. well, elections have consequences. >> rush is now certain that his tax rate is going up. way, way up to where it was for eight years during the clinton presidency.

the eight years when rush limbaugh continued to get himself bigger, better and faster private jets. but when we return to the clinton tax rate for the limbaugh bracket, rush insists that happy days will not be here again. >> it's going to fundamentally change the relationship of citizen to state. it's going to fundamentally remove capitalism as the u.s. primary economic system. >> crystal, they were not carrying white flags coming out of the white house. but john boehner and mitch mcconnell could not have sounded more defeated on day one. they may rally and fight some, but i didn't hear any fight today. >> yeah, and you have to think for boehner in particular, he's thinking too about his own legacy, which thus far as speaker of the house has been marked by historic gridlock, record low approval ratings, his caucus holding the country

hostage for various reasons. so i think he wants to be seen as that kind of speaker who can strike a deal, who can reach across the aisle and make things happen. so i think he's thinking of that, not to mention the drumming that they just took in the election and the fact that they have to move on this issue. they have no political leverage, the president has said, you know what, guys, let's extend the tax cuts for 97% of americans, then talk about the other 3% and figure that out. how do you defend against that position? >> maggie, the politics are fascinating for boehner. in the senate, they don't need anything for mcconnell. he can stand up and speak against it all day, as long as six or seven republicans vote with the democrats. boehner has to bring up the bill and allow it to occur. that's a totally different dynamic for him. >> to your point at the beginning of this, this was an appearance of conciliatory language.

the devil is in the details. he is going to have to find a way to get his conference, which has not been willing to engage on these issues in the past to do so here. he has more impetus to do it now because of legacy and the reality this is politically unpopular at the moment to where the republican party has been. they need to move forward in a different way, and that rga meeting where you saw governors say the people have spoken, they're all feeling this. >> ken conrad retiring, democrat said today about these republicans talking about revenues and how unprecedented it is to his ear. >> revenue is the issue. i've been involved, as you know, in intensive negotiations with republicans and the group of six, the group of eight, hundreds and hundreds of hours. at the end of the day, the big difference is on revenue. republicans, until now, have absolutely been opposed to any

change in revenue. now that's starting to change. >> not only is it starting to change, but even rush limbaugh is saying it feels over to him. it feels like it's done and his rates are going up. >> there's safety in numbers. the more that you see people coming out, respected leaders in the party, people who are respected and admired by the far right of the party, the more you see them come out, the safer it is. what ultimately are republican caucus members worried about? primary challenges. so if you have a lot of people who are going along, who are saying maybe we can increase revenue a little bit, then it's -- then you're less likely to have that, be that one person that the club for growth targets as a rhino and puts up a primary challenger against. so the more that we see governors, leaders coming out and saying we're open to this, the more you'll see people falling in line. >> the tax argue mint has been rates versus reductions.

the republicans saying you can limit deductions and that sort of thing. that's listen to what kent conrad said today to john harwood, very important. and this is the part the republicans sound like they've given up arguing. let's listen. >> if as the president said you find that you can't get enough from loopholes and deductions, do you see republicans giving on the top rate and it goes up somewhat? >> you can't do it without raising rates, at least on capital gains and dividends. you could do it mathematically, by not going up on the top rate that is from 35% to 39.6%. but that presents some very difficult challenges in terms of the so-called tax expenditures, because if you don't go up on the top rate, you have to go deeper into tax expenditures. that means you start affecting very popular things like home mortgage deduction, the health care deduction.

>> that's basically what bill clinton was saying, the math doesn't work. ken conrad can do that every day and other democrats are well versed in that, and the republicans, i get the feeling they realize that argument is working. >> i think that's right. one of the arguments about mitt romney, the math doesn't add up is because they weren't saying what was in the math. that was a big problem for the republicans throughout the campaign. we are now past that point. we're going to have to say it. mitt romney's argument was we'll tell you once we're elected what this plan looks like. now what you're hearing is a confidence about not just rates versus deductions but rates versus revenue. i think that's going to be a big part of where this argument goes. >> thank you both for joining me tonight. >> thanks, lawrence. coming up, it's not just lawmakers who are talking to the president about the fiscal curb and budget deals.

ben jealous met with the president today, and he's next. and more romney tape has been revealed showing how bitter he is about latino voters and just how disappointed he is in white men. and in the rewrite, as week one of the petraeus sex scandal comes to a close, it's time for that little talk i've been meaning to have with you about sex. sex talk, coming up in the rewrite. i dare you to miss that. when you take a closer look... ...at the best schools in the world... ...you see they all have something

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we now have more tape of mitt romney's i'm sorry i lost conference calls with his big money donors. and in the "rewrite" tonight, sex talk and lots of it. do i have your attention? [ male announcer ] you are a business pro. governor of getting it done. you know how to dance... with a deadline. and you...rent from national.

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agenda, including representatives of the naacp, the urban league and the human rights campaign. we'll be joined by someone who was in that meeting in a moment. yesterday, president obama brought his campaign to tax the rich to the rich. yesterday at the white house, the president's deputy budget director met with a group that calls itself patriotic millionaires. people who are willing and ready to pay more in taxes under the obama tax plan. >> the people around me have done very well. millionaires have become multimillionaires, and multimillionaires have become billionaires and our middle class has suffered. i'm happy to pay more taxes. i love my country and what it represents. >> joining me now, two people who have been part of these talks, abigail disney, filmmaker, and ben jealous, president and ceo of the naacp.

ben, you met with the president today after he met with the congressional leaders. did you get any idea in that meeting what had gone on with the congressional leaders? >> look, he was very clear that he thinks a deal is possible, that it's not a sure thing, but that it's possible. he was also very clear, and this is why we were there, that he's going to fight for the working class and fight for middle class people in this country. he's going to make sure that congress really feels the pressure. and we all need to make sure that congress feels the pressure to get these deal to him to extend the tax cuts for working class people in this country, for that 98% of us that right now is being held hostage. the senate passed a bill, the house needs to pass the bill too so he can sign it. >> abigail, do you realize that the president is proposing that the top income bracket go up

4.5% from 39% to -- do you understand? >> i do. >> this is going to be as bad and oppressive as it was during those eight horrible years of the clinton administration. >> yes, those eight years of prosperity under the clinton administration. so all he's proposing is we go back to what we had in the '90s. >> the rich got nothing but richer during those years. that was a great period. >> and the middle class thrived and we had balanced budgets and even surpluses back then. >> why do you think that there's been such a strain on the republican side, possibly up to now, about letting something happen to this top tax bracket because clearly people in that bracket split their votes between president obama and mitt romney and plenty of rich people voted for president obama. >> you know, i can't tell you, because it defies logic at this point. we've had ten years since these tax cuts and we've seen the

results of them. we are looking at a horrific deficit, all traceable really to the root of this tax cut and the two wars that weren't funded. and the fiscal cliff that we fell off of in 2008. so we've watched the results of what happens when we don't tax at those levels and we've watched the middle class get, you know, the crap beaten out of them in the process. so i really am lost trying to understand. >> we have a new gallup poll today that shows 45% of americans now say they favor a balanced approach to reducing the deficit with an equal amount of tax increases and spending cuts. that's up 32% -- up from 32% from last year. ben jealous, in your opportunity with the president today and others, and the groups that were represented, were other subjects discussed beyond just the

current budget situation? >> sure. we talked about the need to get this country back to work. and the need to really focus on jobs. we've done our own polls with black voters and 2-1 said, you know, this president, this government needs to focus on jobs. but we were also very clear that this is step by step and for the next six weeks, what this country has to focus on is making sure that we pull back the working people in this country from this fiscal cliff. and we go ahead and we extend their tax cuts because we're talking about $3,000 being pulled out of the pocket of a family that just makes $50,000. that is absolutely a leg issue. when the foreman calls for us to pitch in to make breakfast, the chicken gives an egg. and for the rich, this is an egg issue. for the rest of us, this is truly a leg issue. we were happy to see this

president on fire, as we are on fire, to make sure that congress just goes ahead and pulls the working people up and back off this fiscal cliff. >> abigail, there are two prominent pockets of wealth in this country. there's the wall street wealth just on the other end of manhattan and they seem resentful, and there's hollywood wealth that you're a part of. there's something about that west coast pocket that isn't at all resentful about paying a larger share into this community that this government serves. what is the difference? you've been around both of those communities, what is the difference? >> i couldn't say i know the difference. i've lived in both places. i just know for my purposes, i've gotten to the point of understanding, well, there's plenty. there's limousine liberals.

i'm a subway liberal. i don't need a limousine. and how many dancing lessons do your horses need? so i've watched this in manhattan for 20 years. it was ridiculous in the '90s and now it's obscene in the last ten years. i think there's an interiorized sense of entitlements that have come to believe that i'm pulling in a billion dollars a year because i'm that great a guy. and that's really kind of the frightening thing to me. i think that's why they're so angry about letting go of not just this 4.5% in taxes but also we would love to talk about the capital gains, the interest loophole and other things. just these small provisions in letting these tax cuts lapse just for the 2% and getting capital gains taxes back to where they were under the clinton administration, and taxing dividends like ordinary income, those things will get us to almost $1 trillion over ten years. that gets us halfway there to being 1-1.

i can't imagine how anybody can look at this situation we're in and not say, you know, if my life is not going to be materially affected in a bad way by this kind of a tax increase, why would i object? >> abigail and ben, thank you both very much for joining me tonight. >> thank you. coming up, new tape shows mitt romney is wicked mad at latino voters and he's wicked disappointed in white men. and it's sex night tonight in "the rewrite" thanks to the very, very bad judgment of david petraeus.

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new tape of mitt romney saying stupid stuff to his rich donors. that's coming up. and president obama's second term unofficially began today with his meeting with congressional leaders. great expectations for the obama second term that's later. and in the "rewrite" tonight, david petraeus, bill clinton, john edwards, and lots and lots and lots of talk about sex.

in the spotlight tonight, the romney tapes. abc news has released more of the audio and transcript of the phone calls they obtained this week of mitt romney talking to his disappointed, some might even say fleeced campaign donors. according to abc news, romney told them, we're still having a hard time just contemplating what could have been versus what is. and it just doesn't seem real. we're still in the stage of denial at my house. we still think the campaign is going on. no word yet on whether romney is seeing a neurologist for this condition. romney, who believed the

successful way to campaign for president was to promise more tax avoidance gifts to the richest americans was intensely bitter about hispanic voters. we did two very popular things for the hispanic community. what the president did is he gave them two things. one, he gave them a big gift on immigration with the dream act amnesty program, which was obviously very, very popular with hispanic voters. and then number two was obama care, and so for any lower income hispanic family, obama care was massive. for the average income per household in america is $50,000 per year. that's the median. 50 k per year. for the hispanic household, maybe it's $40,000 a year. for a home earning say $30,000 a year, free health care, which is

worth about $10,000 a year, is massive. it's huge. >> mitt romney now realizes "on the issues, we were not good." that's what he actually said on the tapes. he said, what would we do with the hispanic -- what would we do with the hispanic community was not as popular obviously. we talked tough on immigration and going to repeal obama care. so on the issues, we were not good. and mitt romney has figured out a few weeks too late what some other republicans have already figured out, that republicans simply have to change their immigration policy. >> clearly, we have to have an immigration plan. this idea of just kicking this down the field until every four years the democrats use it as an issue to hit us over the head with is nuts.

>> one angry member of the conservative entertainment complex is in complete agreement with romney's political analysis. >> when i said that on election night, that the various groups were breaking for president obama, and it was primarily because of free stuff, and then the exit polling showed that. i got attacked as being racist right away by the democrats. they attacked me on what i said, because what i said was true. but trying to send a warning, don't you say that free stuff is why we got elected or we'll call you a bigot. you always know you win when they start that. >> that data challenged cable news host whose audience has declined since the election, obviously has no idea that the people who get the most stuff from the government are age 65 and over. and they voted for mitt romney 56% to 44%. joining me now, president of the national council of loraza.

and msnbc's karen finney. karen, i want you to listen to something that -- this was also in the call, the romney pollster has another explanation for the loss. he says on the call, the way we figured it out is, 900,000 fewer white men voted in our target states than in 2008. and 607,000 more african-americans and hispanics voted. karen, i could have told them if they were relying on lazy white men to get out there to the polls, come on. >> that's not where you want to put your money. but you know what that shows? their strategy, go after the white vote. i just had to love earlier this week when ryan was like, there are all these urban voters that came out of nowhere. if you read the census, you

would know that actually there are black people and latino people who are registered to vote who might come out to vote and if you don't give them something to vote for, they probably won't be voting for you. >> the thing i love about romney talks about they have to change immigration policy. he talking about it as if he has nothing to do with what policy choices say the republican nominee for president makes, even if that republican nominee is mitt romney. >> of course. he had a chance to talk more specifically about immigration in the campaign. of course, he chose not to. and i think that he has this concept of gifts confused with sensible policy solutions, which i think he failed to offer in terms of the hispanic community. i think it reflected a broader misunderstanding of the communities of color, the hispanic community in particular. the comments were offensive and wrong and i just think that we

need to hopefully now move on and it's encouraging to see that the republican leaders, or at least some of the republicans -- those in the republican party are emerging to acknowledge that they obviously rejected his comments and i'm encouraged by folks like senator marco rubio and governor martinez saying that we need to step away from that direction. i think that's more encouraging and i'm more interested in what the republican party is going to do now. i think there is an opportunity around immigration. >> let's listen to another bit of the romney tapes where he's talking about a phone call he got from president clinton after the election. >> i spoke with president clinton the day before yesterday. he called and spent 30 minutes chatting with me. he said a week out i thought you were going to win. and he said, but the hurricane happened and it gave the president a chance to be presidential and to look

bipartisan, and the -- he got a little more momentum. of course, he also said that when he was watching ann speak at the republican convention, he said he was tempted to join the republican party. so he may have been effusive with generous comments as he chatted. >> does your friend bill clinton pander to every single person he speaks to? the hurricane sandy thing, if bill clinton really thinks that, bill clinton is wrong. that is now how president obama won. >> i think you hit on something in the opening. he must be on drugs. there's no way that bill clinton and he had that conversation. what i'm worried about, i'm hearing let's change our words. what's the right thing we have to say, without the understanding it's your policy. it's also that you don't make

people feel welcome in your party when you talk about people as aliens or when you say those people and the free stuff and decide we don't have to talk to them and ask them for their vote or show them respect that. is a fundamentally deeper problem this republican party has right now. >> janet and karen, thank you both for joining me tonight. >> thank you. coming up, four more years. what to expect in president obama's second term from the author of "barack obama, the story." and in the "rewrite," it's not about the sex. it's about the judgment of david petraeus. but in talking about the cia director's very bad judgment, i am going to have to talk about sex, a lot. but hey, it's friday night, it's late in cable news world. so we can go places we don't usually go tonight. a conservative investor. i invest in what i know. i turned 65 last week. i'm getting married. planning a life. there are risks, sure. but, there's no reward without it. i want to be prepared for the long haul.

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as some of you may know, the moments in the shows when we tell you what's coming up are called teases.

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ask your doctor about spiriva. with david petraeus taking his place in the adultery hall of fame just down the hall from john edwards and around the corner from newt gingrich and bill clinton, it's time for a little sex talk here on "the last word." let's rewrite the concept of marital fidelity. what most people mean is sexual exclusivity. consider the marriage of bill and hillary clinton.

we can never really know the facts about anyone else's marriage, but what i am going to say i think is reasonable supposition based on the evidence. i think the clinton marriage is full of love. bill for hillary, hillary for bill. i think the clinton marriage is stable and solid, that they are fully committed to their marriage, to each other and always have been. i think the clinton marriage is simply a good marriage. i think the clinton marriage works. it works for them. and it does not include sexual exclusivity. it is, in that sense, a thoroughly modern marriage, or a thoroughly traditional french marriage. to be faithful is something much larger than sexual exclusivity. bill clinton is a faithful family man. he's a faithful father to his daughter. and yes, he's a faithful husband

to his wife, loyal to her. supportive of her. devoted to her. but he's not always been sexually exclusive to her. bill and hillary clinton are both smart enough and loyal enough to each other and love each other enough to realize that the sexual exclusivity issue was never going to be a big enough problem to end their marriage. because they don't define marital fidelity as simply sexual exclusivity. and they're not the only ones. the clintons obviously judge marital fidelity to be something much bigger than that, and their judgment has been proven right. so the petraeus affair is not about infidelity, it's about sexual exclusivity. it is about the consequences of the bad judgments that david petraeus made in his relationship with paula broadwell and others in the story. no adult in the 21st century should be shocked that either

david petraeus or paula broadwell had sex outside of their marriage. it happens. it happens all the time. and no adult in the 21st century should presume to guess how it happened in this case. you should leave the guessing to the adults of the 18th century, some of whom for some strange reason are still around. >> this is -- he's a lieutenant colonel, extremely good looking woman. she is a marathon runner. she run ironman triathlons. so she's out running with him and writing a biography. i think the term is propinquity and i think there was a lot going on. a man is off in a foreign land and he's lonely and here's a

good looking lady throwing herself at him. he's a man. >> sounds like the viagra kicked in right before the show. yes, david petraeus is a man, and he was also the head of the cia and the only relevant question that should make us ask is what does this tell us about his judgment since his job relied so heavily on his judgment? the 1950 spy novel notion that extramarital sex could make petraeus subject to blackmail is childish. the judgment issue is the only one worth examining here, and what we see at every stage of this story is david petraeus' judgment is terrible. his terrible judgment is not about the sex. it's about the e-mails about the sex. general petraeus engaged in risky behavior involving his e-mail, and he did it with a person who engaged in each more risky behavior with her e-mail.

his bad judgment was that he and she could keep their little secret. she made the stunningly intemperate decision thinking she could send angry e-mails to another woman about general petraeus. and that led us down a trail of a series of terrible judgments made by david petraeus. while he was stationed in florida, general petraeus welcomed into his life some military groupies, a local doctor and his wife, jill kelley, and her very troubled sister. generals, senators, congressman, movie stars, et cetera, all have people who crave a place in their entourages. they have to be very careful of these people. jill kelley and her sister were both graduates of a reality tv show before they met david petraeus. they obviously loved throwing

around their association with the general, and that alone should have been reason enough for general petraeus and general john allen to keep them at very long distances. jill kelley and her husband had bankrupted a cancer charity that they created after spending virtually all of the money on themselves instead of on cancer research. that's who generals petraeus and allen had the very bad judgment to befriend so closely. they both wrote breathtakingly stupid and pointless letters to a judge on behalf of jill kelley's sister. she had renamed her son without telling his father. she had moved with her son to florida from washington, d.c. without permission.

and court records also show they didn't correct her son when the boy began to call her sister's husband "dad." of course, the judge ignored the general's silly letters, but the generals did not have the good judgment to know that their silly letters would be ignored by a judge. is david petraeus the first high ranking general to have an affair? general and president dwight eisenhower could tell you that no, he isn't. is david petraeus the first cia director to have an affair? surely he isn't. but what he is is a four-star general and a cia director who had the profoundly bad judgment to engage in the kind of affair that got wildly out of control and left hard drives full of proof of the affair. and so the petraeus affair is not about the sex. and i know when people say it's not about the sex, it is about

the sex, but for me, it is not about the sex. i mean it. we should look at the petraeus affair as a useful window, perhaps not the only window, but a useful window into the man's judgment and everything we see through that window is a series of very reckless judgments. one good thing about the petraeus affair is that he's finally getting some balanced coverage in the news media. "time" magazine, which has previously been as worshipful of general petraeus as the rest of the media, has this in the middle of its petraeus affair cover story. petraeus is a remarkable piece of fiction created and promoted by neocons in government, the media, and academia, argues doug mass mcgregor. how does an officer with no personal experience of direct fire combat in panama or desert storm become a division commander?

and so in the space of a few days, david petraeus has gone from being a remarkable piece of fiction to a bumbling character in an unremarkable soap opera. this is not a story about sex, sit a story about judgment. it is a story about a man's judgment, a man who had people's lives in his hands as a general, and as cia director. the question president obama had to answer for himself last week was how much bad judgment was he willing to tolerate in his cia director and president obama's answer was none. [ lisa ] my name's lisa and chantix helped me quit. i honestly loved smoking, and i honestly didn't think i would ever quit. [ male announcer ] along with support chantix

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excuse me, there's one other point i wanted to make. my understanding is that tomorrow's speaker boehner's birthday. for those of you that want to wish him a happy birthday. we're not going to embarrass him with a cake because we didn't know how many candles were needed. >> yeah, right.

>> but we do want to wish him a happy birthday. >> thank you. >> that's how today's budget negotiation meeting began. today was the president's first day of legislative work for his second term. joining me now to discuss the prospects for the president's second term, author of "barack obama, the story." david, you wrote in "the washington post" about this second terms often bring a new set of frustrations for a president following the laws of diminishing returns and lame duckiness. but also a second term is required to ratify presidential greatness and in that sense, obama is not ambivalent about his ambitions. what do you think the president's ambitions are for the second term? >> it's pretty clear, to reach some measure of greatness. there's a difference between expectations and possibilities. so i'm not necessarily expecting

it. but i think his re-election and the way his first term set him up for a second term offers that possibility. >> david, i'm wondering what a greatness -- how greatness would be defined or what greatness options would be available that when you're facing a big budget package, it's -- that's all changeable law. bill clinton did a great thing in his first term by getting a handle on the deficit with tax increases and all that. then george bush comes in and changes those rates. what is of lasting importance achievable in this second term? >> i think it really is health care, and i think of it like this, lawrence. he passed it in the first term, but had he not been re-elected, it would have been greatly emasculated by the republicans. and now it has a chance to take effect, so people will finally

know what it means and what it will do for millions of people. i think that in and of itself will be not just a great achievement of the first term but probably in the second term. i agree with you. i don't think that economic policy in and of itself lasts for decades afterwards. so the grand bargain, whatever it is, might get the country on a path back to something more fiscally sound. but that's not going to be it. i think it will be health care and something beyond that. immigration, i hate the word reform, but a new immigration policy is sort of not a great measure, but will help his legacy some. and then he has to look for some third thing. whether he can get to that, whether it's climate change, and it's more likely some measure of climate change, than an issue that's closer to your heart and mine, that is dealing with the insanity of guns in this country. >> yeah, and on the health care thing, david, it's such a

complex piece of legislation. it's one that is going to require more adjustments and monitoring, especially in the first couple of years. they'll pick up new information about how it's working, what needs to be improved. so he's going to have an 18-month window where they know how it's working and they got things to fix. >> i agree. that is the major event of his next two years as well. and so, you know, i think people forgot about that to a certain extent during the campaign, that it had been passed, but now is a time when it becomes the reality. that's hugely important. >> and david, what is your sense of how this president -- given what you know in your biography of bill clinton, of the way presidents start to think about that word, legacy. at some point after that re-election night, that word starts to get in their heads. how do you think it will affect president obama? >> i think it was in his head much earlier than his re-election.

i really think that so much of his presidency, and of his political career can be explained by the fact that he never really wanted to just survive. in other words, he wasn't just doing something tactical for the moment, which was bill clinton's specialty. so that often led to frustrations. but he always wanted to set it up so he wouldn't be trapped in a place where he couldn't achieve something greater.